As the Founder & CEO of The EffortLESS Life®, Courtney Elmer is a sought-after consultant, host, and speaker who is known for helping entrepreneurs embrace antifragility and grow through what they go through to create the greater income, influence, and impact they deserve.

Drawing on her background in psychology and personal experience as a cancer survivor, Courtney empowers online business leaders to establish the systems, structure, and support they need to build self-sustaining businesses that thrive in a rapidly changing digital environment, expand their thought leadership through podcasting, and use their voice to catalyze positive change in the world.

Courtney hosts the globally-ranked AntiFragile Entrepreneurship™ podcast, which recently surpassed How I Built Ther and Harvard Business Review on the list of 11 Top Business Podcasts for Professionals by Small Biz Trends. She’s a popular speaker on the topics of podcast marketing, business systems, and entrepreneurial antifragility at notable industry conferences such as PodFest Global, and her skills and knowledge are frequently sought by leaders and teams from Forbes, Fast Company, PopSugar, and more.

Courtney lives in New Orleans with her husband Alan and their son AJ, a surprise miracle baby following her cancer treatments.

Key Moments

[00:02:06] Corporate success, fairy tale romance, unexpected diagnosis.

[00:03:20] Doctor’s strange vibe, test results, specialist takeover.

[00:06:57] “Remarkable progress: From youth to success.”

[00:12:17] Valleys bring growth, define our journeys.

[00:16:18] Choosing to show up, using my voice.

[00:17:44] Entrepreneur questions if work is sufficient.

[00:22:03] Silenced as a child, still battling vocal struggles.

[00:23:28] Power of voice, highs and lows, ownership.

Find Courtney Online

https://antifragileentrepreneurship.co

https://instagram.com/thecourtneyelmer

https://www.theeffortlesslife.co/

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Transcript (Provided by CastMagic.io)

Seth [00:00:00]:

Entrepreneurs Enigma is a podcast for the ups and downs of entrepreneurship, the wins and the fails that we all face being entrepreneurs. How we learn from adversity. Every week, I talk to a different entrepreneur with a story to tell. I’m Seth Goldstein. Come with me on the journey. This is Entrepreneurs Enigma. Let’s get started. Hey, everyone. Welcome to another edition of the Entrepreneurs Enigma podcast. I’m your host. As always. Hasn’t changed, Seth. Today I have. Courtney Elmer. She is a sought after consultant, host, and speaker who is known to help entrepreneurs embrace anti fragility and grow the way they should and be rock stars. She also has a very popular podcast called Get this kind of tells you what it’s about. The anti fragile. Entrepreneurship. Trademark podcast. We’ll put the trademark in there, TM, and it is very popular. It even beat out I Built this and the Harvard Business Reviews Podcast on the list of Top Ten business podcasts for professionals by Small business trends. That’s pretty wild. That’s pretty cool. So let’s bring Courtney in here. Hey, Court. How’s it going?

Courtney [00:01:27]:

Seth? I’m good. How are you doing? Thanks for having me.

Seth [00:01:29]:

Oh, this is wild. And we met. I had saw you. Podfest pod podfest. Global online. I reached out, like, hey, we should know, we should chat. I’m like, oh, you’d be great for the podcast because you have a story. You’re a small business coach, you’ve done all that, but you are a cancer survivor, which is that’s no joke. That talk about being resourceful. You have to be resourceful to get through that. So that’s insane. And that kind of reshapes everything. I’m sure it does.

Courtney [00:01:58]:

And that’s really where my journey starts. That diagnosis changed everything. It changed everything, yeah.

Seth [00:02:03]:

So what were you doing pre cancer?

Courtney [00:02:06]:

Were you in the corporate ryan yes. Climbing that ladder. And by all the world standards, I was successful. I was driving the luxury car. I had had the promotions, all those things that you think matter. And during that time in my life, I had met the love of my life, and we had dated for a couple of years, and he proposed, and we were planning our wedding. All the fairy the whole fairy tale story. And a couple of weeks before the wedding, had a terrible sinus infection. Don’t know what it was. Thought, oh, gosh, I’m so stressed. I wish this thing would just be over. I couldn’t wait to get on the other side of the wedding and catch my breath. And so I had gone to the doctor, and they had scheduled a follow up visit, ran some tests, typical stuff. Had a follow up visit scheduled for two days after we got home from our honeymoon. So my husband was off of work at the time, still hadn’t gone back to work yet. So he came in with me, and we were just thinking, oh, quick follow up. Be in and out of there. Go grab some lunch and go on about our life.

Seth [00:03:08]:

So you got through the wedding?

Courtney [00:03:09]:

Yes, got through the wedding, gone on our honeymoon.

Seth [00:03:13]:

Good. Now life starts. Yes, but life started.

Courtney [00:03:20]:

So my doctor walks in the office that day, and I will never forget this, Seth. I’m sitting there with know those horrible fluorescent lights? It’s like flickering overhead and buzzing. Yes. And you know how doctors’offices can be. They’re cold, they’re sterile. You’re in there waiting for hours. So my doctor finally walks in, and I just suddenly picked up this really strange vibe from him. That’s all I can describe it as. He just was not his chatty self. He just seemed a little reticent. I’m like, what is going on? Anyway, he sits me down, and he’s like, courtney, look, we got your test results back. This really falls beyond the scope of my expertise. I’m turning your case over to a specialist, and she’s here today. She’ll be here in just a few moments to meet you. I’ll introduce you, and I’ll let her take it from here.

Seth [00:04:07]:

So he buries the lead even he doesn’t want to break the news, even. Oh, my God.

Courtney [00:04:12]:

And I’m like, Case specialist, like, what is going so and so?

Seth [00:04:19]:

Now you’re saying for the next few minutes, you’re like, what the heck?

Courtney [00:04:22]:

Right? So I hear this knock on the door. This doctor walks in, and she was a beautiful woman, smiling. She sits down, and she looks at me, and she says, courtney, we got those test results back, and you have thyroid cancer. She said, the good news the good news, Courtney, is that it’s typically very treatable. She said, the not so good news is that you’re the youngest patient I have ever treated with this record to have. Right. She said, and it started to spread. So surgery and treatment immediately. She said, I’ve cleared a spot for you on my schedule next Monday for surgery.

Seth [00:05:03]:

Oh, jeez.

Courtney [00:05:03]:

This was less than a week away.

Seth [00:05:06]:

Honey, welcome to marriage.

Courtney [00:05:08]:

I know. In sickness and in health. Looking over at him like, what is this? So to make a very long story short, had the surgery, went through radiation treatment, and as of June of this year, at the time of this recording, I’ve been ten years cancer free.

Seth [00:05:26]:

So you have to do chemo.

Courtney [00:05:28]:

Did not have to do chemo.

Seth [00:05:29]:

Oh, radiation still sucks. It still makes you tired and all that stuff. But chemo is no joke.

Courtney [00:05:34]:

Yes. Radiation.

Seth [00:05:37]:

They’re making you radioactive, for crying out loud.

Courtney [00:05:39]:

Yes. Crazy. Absolutely crazy.

Seth [00:05:42]:

Knockwood. Ten years. Wow.

Courtney [00:05:44]:

Yeah.

Seth [00:05:45]:

We’re going to take a quick break, hear from our sponsors, and get right back to the show.

Courtney [00:05:49]:

So that set me on a totally different path, because it was the curveball out of left field that I did not see coming. And having to just stop, like, literally pump the brakes and put my entire life on hold for several months was not something I was used to. I’ve always been type A go getter. I would work nights, weekends, lunch breaks. Like I was climbing that ladder, I was going places. And suddenly all of that stopped, and all of that changed. And I had to face my deepest fears. One of my deepest fears was getting some kind of diagnosis like this at some point in my life. I didn’t think it would be at 25 exactly.

Seth [00:06:28]:

Some point is the key word there in your life, right? Oh, God.

Courtney [00:06:33]:

So suddenly I was confronted with these really big questions that I had to answer for myself. What do I want out of my life? I know this sounds cliche, but gosh, in that moment, I realized how short life really is.

Seth [00:06:44]:

It really wakes you up.

Courtney [00:06:46]:

So I had to make some changes, and I had to just really examine within my own heart what I wanted and how I wanted to live my life.

Seth [00:06:57]:

Wow. I can imagine at 25, too. I mean, literally, your medulla just formed. Literally, when you think about seriously, now you’re an adult. So the higher being saying, hey, you can deal with this now. What? That’s a lot to deal with. It’s a lot to deal with when you’re 45 or whatever. It’s a lot to deal with. Yeah, but ten years, you’re going strong. You have your own company now. You’re beating out how I built this, for crying out loud. That’s pretty wild, dude.

Courtney [00:07:35]:

Yeah, it changed everything. So that really was a catalyst moment for me. And I often talk about these things called catalyst moments, and a lot of times we don’t realize that until hindsight. We’re looking back and we’re saying, oh, that was a moment that changed things.

Seth [00:07:51]:

Yes.

Courtney [00:07:52]:

And I teach a lot about antifragility. This is a new theory. This is an emerging field. But antifragility what that means for those listening who have maybe never heard of that term, they’re like, what is that? Yeah, if you look at something that’s fragile, let’s just think of an egg, and you apply pressure to that egg, you crack it on the counter, it’s going to break, and there’s no coming back from that. There’s no bouncing back from that break.

Seth [00:08:19]:

No Humpty Dumpty fall, that whole thing.

Courtney [00:08:22]:

No. So that describes something that’s fragile. And Naseem Taleb was the person who developed this word called anti fragility, because he and his research noticed, know, we have words like robust, we have words like resilient, but there was no word in the English vernacular that described something that was the exact opposite of fragile.

Seth [00:08:50]:

That’s wild.

Courtney [00:08:52]:

So he just called it antifragile. That’s kind of logical makes sense, right?

Seth [00:08:56]:

Yeah.

Courtney [00:08:57]:

So what antifragile does antifragility is it takes this idea of resilience a step further. When something is resilient, it can withstand pressure, it can withstand chaos, it can withstand some sort of pressure, but it doesn’t necessarily grow from it. It bounces back, maybe becomes a little bit stronger in the face of pressure, your future pressure, future chaos, but there’s no growth necessitated from it. Something that’s antifragile is something that grows because of the pressure. It grows through it, it grows beyond.

Seth [00:09:39]:

It despite the even. Yeah.

Courtney [00:09:42]:

So it goes a step further than resilience, which as entrepreneurs, we talk about a lot. You got to be resilient. This digital landscape changes all the time. We got to change with it. We got to adapt and all that’s good adaptability.

Seth [00:09:54]:

It’s become a buzword resilience, too.

Courtney [00:09:57]:

Buzzy yes, but antifragility actually means growing through what you go through.

Seth [00:10:05]:

Oh, my God, I love that. And you literally did that, for crying out loud. You really did.

Courtney [00:10:10]:

Yes. So that is something that now in my work, in the entrepreneurial field, looking at how can we leverage failure? We’re all going to face it. First of all, we all resist it. We all know we’re going to face it at some point. We don’t want to face it.

Seth [00:10:27]:

It’s uncomfortable, but it’s not a bad thing. It means you can move on to the next thing or adjust things. People think failure is bad. I’m like, Come on, failure. You want to fail fast. You don’t want to fail slow because you feel slow. It’s not a good thing.

Courtney [00:10:40]:

But even when you fail, and we might know this logically, that yeah, it is a good thing, we learn from our mistakes. Mistakes are rich in information. We can move forward. But a lot of times in that moment, we get really hard on ourselves.

Seth [00:10:53]:

It’s hard not to.

Courtney [00:10:54]:

It’s hard not to. And so by embracing this idea of antifragility, we can actually begin to open ourselves to the opportunities that are there for us in those failures, in those low points. I call them the valleys. We all know we have those highs and lows on this journey of entrepreneurship, those peaks in those valleys. And for most of us, we want to be at the peak, we want to be at the pinnacle. We want to be seen as that in demand expert, that thought leader, that person that everyone goes, oh, my gosh, this person’s brilliant. Teach me more. Yes, but the peak requires the valley.

Seth [00:11:32]:

Oh, absolutely.

Courtney [00:11:32]:

What goes up valley is a prerequisite. Right. The problem is, in the valley, we’re often looking to escape that as quickly as we can. Those dark points, those low points, those moments of failure, those pivot points in our journey, we don’t want to be there. We want to have it figured out. We want to have clarity. We want to feel like we’ve got that momentum back and we’re moving in a direction. But when we do that, what we overlook is the fruit that’s there in the valley. And if you look back at ancient civilizations as they’re traveling the world, looking at where to settle, where to set up camp, where to put down roots, they didn’t look at the top of mountains? No, they looked in the valley because they knew it was the most fertile ground.

Seth [00:12:15]:

That’s a good analogy. I like that.

Courtney [00:12:17]:

And sometimes in our life, the valley might last a day, a week, a month, six months, a year. Sometimes it can be mean. I’ll be completely honest with you, Seth. This past year has been a major valley in my life with a lot of little things that have caused me to have to sit back and examine things and change things and think about things differently than I had been thinking about them before. And it’s good. It’s brought about a lot of growth, but it’s also been hard. It’s not fun to be in the Valley, but as entrepreneurs, when we can remember that, hey, wait a second. This valley is something that actually I have to go through in order to get to my next peak. Rather than trying to just race through it as quickly as possible. We can actually sit with it. We can be okay with it, and we can recognize that, hey, this valley or this failure or this dark point in my life doesn’t define me, but it is helping me write my story for where I’m going.

Seth [00:13:22]:

And a lot of people don’t realize that the whole term is what goes up must come down, but what goes down must come up. I’m thinking about bicycling. I’m like, sometimes going into those valleys is not a bad thing because you get to relax a little bit and then realize you’re in the Valley and you’re like, all right, now what? We got to climb out of this valley. We got to say, all right, here’s where we’re at. Here’s where we need to go. Time to climb.

Courtney [00:13:45]:

Right?

Seth [00:13:46]:

So that’s great. All right. So you are the corporate ladder. You’re, like, rocking it. Then thyroid cancer said hello, and you’re like, all right, no, we’re not going to do this. We’re not going to do this. All right. A bunch of months of radiation. You’re like, all right. Kind of rewired you for the more the entrepreneurial journey. Kind of like, all right, what’s my life’s all about? And all that stuff. So what is the best thing? Because you had the corporate climb climb out the whole valley thing, and then you had the dip, which is the cancer, and you went up again. What’s the best thing about being an entrepreneur versus being a high powered executive with a fancy car?

Courtney [00:14:28]:

This is a great question. The immediate thing that comes up to me is the ability to use my voice in really big ways. I like that in ways that I couldn’t do before in a corporate environment. Part of that being because I’ve been a lifelong people pleaser and feeling like I couldn’t speak up and then at other times speaking up and then getting shot down. The ideas that I share right. Or the things that I think hey, this could really help us. This could help us meet this goal. Why don’t we do it this way? What if we think about doing things this way and just having that met with a lot of resistance and red tape and that kind of stuff? That’s typical in the corporate environment.

Seth [00:15:06]:

Corporate.

Courtney [00:15:07]:

And it’s difficult to feel like you’re actually making a difference.

Seth [00:15:11]:

Absolutely.

Courtney [00:15:11]:

Sure, you get up, you go to work every day, you work 1012 hours, days, nights, weekends, but are you really getting anywhere? So for me, entrepreneurship was not so much about finding freedom and flexibility or financial freedom or anything like that that a lot of people do turn to entrepreneurship for as, it was about being able to utilize my own gifts and talents in a way that I felt could truly help people and that had.

Seth [00:15:40]:

To fake against the corporate person. I’ll make it gender neutral there. Even though ten years ago was the corporate man, and let’s be honest, that was never fun. But now you don’t have to answer to that. You’re the boss. And that’s awesome. I love that. That’s fantastic.

Courtney [00:15:59]:

That’s come with so many lessons, though. Being your own boss sounds great. Oh, it’s not until you realize, wait a second, wait a second. I not only have to hold myself accountable and give myself the pep talks that I need sometimes, right? But I also give myself the encouragement and listen to my own self talk.

Seth [00:16:17]:

Absolutely.

Courtney [00:16:18]:

How I’m talking to myself, how I’m choosing to show up every day. Right before we hit record, I was telling you I have a full day of back to back interviews. And there would have been a time where I would have probably felt a whole lot of imposter syndrome showing up for one interview and letting that get in the way. And literally last night, as I’m looking at my calendar going over what I have scheduled today, I thought to myself, you know what, Courtney, you get to use your voice tomorrow. You get to show up. You get to use this gift that you have in service of others. Whether it impacts one people or 1000 people or 10,000 people, it doesn’t matter because that is why you’re doing this.

Seth [00:16:57]:

And then you get the rest of your voice the next day because I’m sure I’ll be sore. Yeah, I mean, a full day, we were talking about this beforehand. I’m like, I actually don’t like doing back to back interviews. Like, two podcasts in a day is my limit because I’m like it’s a lot. It’s exhausting.

Courtney [00:17:12]:

Yes, I can’t reach it. My water bottle is across from here, but it’s one of these giant, like, 64oz and just drink that all through the day.

Seth [00:17:18]:

And between the interviews saying, homeless, I got to use the bathroom.

Courtney [00:17:21]:

Right?

Seth [00:17:22]:

So on the flip side, I mean, we kind of touched on this. What’s the scariest thing? What keeps you up at night with entrepreneurship and life in general and that kind of stuff.

Courtney [00:17:30]:

Yeah. I think for me, as I lay awake at night, it’s the thought, and it’s a quiet thought doesn’t come in blaring its alarms and yelling at me.

Seth [00:17:42]:

Well, that’s nice of it, right.

Courtney [00:17:44]:

But it’s that nagging thought that, what if I’m not doing enough? What if the work that I’m doing isn’t the work I’m supposed to be doing? That’s been a big question on my mind this year. I think as entrepreneurs, we all experience questions and doubt that comes in some shape or form. And as I mentioned, this year has been a bit of a valley for me, and I’ve had to actually examine the work that I’m doing and reconnect with why I’m doing it, the why. The why, and so that I can go deeper with it. Because for a while there, there were a few years where we were starting to go really wide. We had multiple offers. We had multiple ideal client avatars. We were serving a couple of different audiences, and we were serving them well. Both people in this Program A over here and Program B over here were getting great results. But I felt like I had a foot in two boats, and I was straddling, right. And I couldn’t go anywhere fast because it’s like, oh, let me lean on this way. Okay. Let me lean on this side. And I resisted so much. This idea of narrowing my focus, to focus on one thing, it’s tough, especially.

Seth [00:18:51]:

When you’re because you want to do.

Courtney [00:18:52]:

Both and when you’re multitalented, and you’re multi passionate, and you have an interest in both things, a genuine interest, and you genuinely can help people with multiple things. So the other reason, too, was because I had spent so much time and energy building both things that it was difficult for me to look back and say, okay, does this mean I’m letting go of that, and that all that work and that time and energy and effort goes to waste.

Seth [00:19:17]:

Yeah.

Courtney [00:19:18]:

And as I looked and I examined this and I sat with this and pondered this and marinated on it and laid awake at night worrying about it exactly. I realized that, no, all the time, energy and effort that I spent building Program A over here served the people that it served for the time that it served them.

Seth [00:19:37]:

Yeah. It doesn’t mean you can’t go back to it eventually.

Courtney [00:19:40]:

Right. It will always be there. That will always be a gift that I have that I can utilize at any time. But right now, where I am being called to, when I reconnect with my own deeper why and my own deeper purpose of using my voice to catalyze positive change in the world and helping other entrepreneurs do the same, the path becomes clear. And sometimes it does mean having to let go, and not so much just letting go, but about being open to letting things unfold in a way that’s different than you thought they would.

Seth [00:20:17]:

That’s brilliant. Love that what is the most important thing to carry with you all the time.

Courtney [00:20:22]:

Immediately, the thought that comes up is your voice is your Mm.

Seth [00:20:26]:

That’s true. Yeah.

Courtney [00:20:28]:

People will try to take it from you, and it’s very easy to give that power away, but you can take it back at any time. Seth when I was nine years old, I remember standing in the kitchen, and my mom and I had a very tenuous relationship growing up. I was sassy, I was opinionated, I was outspoken, and I was always talking back to her, and she did not.

Seth [00:20:45]:

Care for that sounds like my child.

Courtney [00:20:47]:

She was always getting on my case about it. And I remember this like it was yesterday. I’m standing there mouthing off about something. I don’t even know what it was. She’s washing dishes at the sink, and she turns and she looks at me and she says, Courtney. And the dish is like, dripping water’s dripping down her elbow onto the floor. She’s just holding the dish and the sponge, and she says, your mouth is what gets you in trouble. Go to your room. And I just remember hearing that, and for whatever reason, in that moment was when I internalized that I’d heard it before.

Seth [00:21:20]:

It can get you in trouble, right. But it can also give you strength. It’s a matter of find a happy medium of not getting yourself into trouble with your voice.

Courtney [00:21:30]:

Right.

Seth [00:21:31]:

Sometimes there’s happy trouble, there’s good trouble to get into, but sometimes it’s not so good. And you kind of have to hear mom’s words to heed your mom’s words and say, all right, maybe this wasn’t the time to open my mouth.

Courtney [00:21:42]:

Right. What I didn’t know at nine years old was that there is a difference between just blabbing your mouth and running your mouth right. And using your voice really intentionally and really mindfully. So what happened?

Seth [00:21:54]:

We’re both parents, and we see our kids doing that now, and it’s like, oh, my God, if they only knew what I know now. And it’s like, well, they’re going to learn eventually, right?

Courtney [00:22:03]:

And I remember walking down the long hallway to my room and just really just thinking about how I never felt heard, didn’t matter how loud I talked. It didn’t feel like anyone actually cared about what I wanted to say, so I just stopped saying it. And I went to the opposite extreme. Instead of being outspoken and opinionated, and certainly as a nine year old, that had a lot of channeling that needed to happen. And I know with my mom’s intention that’s what she was trying to do, she wasn’t trying to harm me psychologically or anything, but because I internalized it, it became a very significant part of my own journey for the next 20 years and really struggled to use my voice. But going through cancer which thyroid sits right above your vocal cords.

Seth [00:22:54]:

Oh, boy. Yeah. And they can mess things up, too.

Courtney [00:22:57]:

That is the biggest risk of the thyroid surgery.

Seth [00:23:00]:

Well, it sounds good, considering.

Courtney [00:23:02]:

Thank you. I remember when my doctor walked in the room to wake me up. She said, Courtney, can you tell me who I am? And it wasn’t to check to see if the anesthesia had worn off. She wanted me to say her name out loud to see if I could speak.

Seth [00:23:17]:

Oh. And was it a hard name?

Courtney [00:23:20]:

No, it wasn’t a hard name sucks.

Seth [00:23:21]:

That would have been even funnier if you said, Doctor, it would really test your lack of thyroid.

Courtney [00:23:28]:

Right. But that’s what she was checking to see if I had my voice. And so that to me as I look back on my own journey, and all of these catalyst moments, all of these pivot points, all of these highs and lows, the peaks and the valleys and the power of my voice throughout that, the times where I gave away that power and the times where I took it back. Circling to your original question there, that is something that I carry with me always, because it’s something that’s yours. No one can take it from you unless you let them.

Seth [00:24:03]:

Don’t let them. So, Courtney, on that note, where is your big watering hole? Online? Where do you hang out the most?

Courtney [00:24:10]:

Yeah, so Instagram is number one. LinkedIn will be a close second. You can find me there. Type my name in. I’m at the Courtney Elmer on Instagram. Courtney elmer on LinkedIn. Surprisingly, there are multiple Courtney Elmer’s on Instagram. Who knew?

Seth [00:24:24]:

I’m like but you got the which is the most important part, the Courtney Elmer. There’s only one. There you go.

Courtney [00:24:29]:

There you go. So you can find me there. And then, of course, my podcast, which you mentioned at the start. Anti, fragile, entrepreneurship. Whatever app you’re listening to right now, it’s so you can type that in, pull it up, find an episode that interests you, and hit play.

Seth [00:24:43]:

And there’s a live episode there. So you’ve been doing that for a while.

Courtney [00:24:46]:

Quite a bit.

Seth [00:24:47]:

Was that a pandemic project?

Courtney [00:24:49]:

Pre pandemic. We actually launched it two weeks before the shutdown. Not because of the shutdown. It was just completely coincidental.

Seth [00:24:58]:

Oh, wow. But, I mean, you had something to do.

Courtney [00:25:00]:

Yeah. And kept it going. We’re pushing 200 episodes now.

Seth [00:25:04]:

Wow. You’re keeping up with me. Wow. Well, good for you, Courtney. This has been so much fun. Thanks for coming on, and we will see everyone next time.

Courtney [00:25:15]:

Thanks, Seth.

Seth [00:25:17]:

That was a great show. If you’re enjoying entrepreneurs Enigma, please view us in the podcast directory of your choice. Every review helps other podcast listeners find our show. If you’re looking for other podcasts in the marketing space, look no further than the Marketing Podcast Network at Marketingpodcasts Network. Goldstein Media hopes you have enjoyed this episode. This podcast is one of the many great shows on the MPN Marketing Podcast Network.