Mike is the CEO and Founder of mowPod, the largest driver of engaged subscribers and listeners to some of the most prominent newsletters and podcasts in the US. He is also the co-host of the Friday Night Karaoke podcast, an (ironically) ad free, negativity free weekly pod highlighting performances from members of the Friday Night Karaoke Facebook community with their submitted themed covers of popular songs. Outside of mowPod, you can find Mike singing karaoke in Japan, skateboarding / snowboarding at a local park / mountain, or spending time with his two amazing kids and incredible wife.

Find Mike Online

https://mowmedia.com/

https://mowpod.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikewiston/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/fridaynightkaraoke/

https://fridaynightkaraoke.org/

Key Moments

[00:00:28] Podcast host Seth welcomes CEO Mike Wiston from Japan, founder of Mopod, a podcast promotion engine. Mike is drinking 20-year-old whiskey.

[00:06:16] Japanese culture values pride and dedication in all jobs; people are friendly and professional, with a focus on quality of life over money.

[00:10:44] Podcasting is a discovery issue with many podcasts out there, including zombie episodes. Digital content disappears and podcasters can use tools like Mopod for a boost. It allows entrepreneurs to interact with others without doing ads.

[00:14:16] Achieve organic growth before paid media. Validate with organic engine before spending money on growth. Example of newsletter with low open rates. Don’t pay for media if not getting organic growth.

[00:17:59] Uncertainty and risk come with entrepreneurship. Relying on one major client is financially dangerous. Diversify investments to avoid losing everything.

[00:21:36] Facebook group started for pandemic karaoke leads to successful podcast featuring weekly theme songs. No negativity or monetization. Number 5 music podcast in US and Canada.

Key Points

– Significance of a necklace as a physical and sentimental object

– Importance of being true to oneself and not imitating others

– Risky nature of entrepreneurism and the uncertainty of income

– Need for diversification to mitigate risks and the potential of Mopod for podcast promotion

– Importance of having an organic engine for growth before investing in paid media

– Speaker’s role as a “dot connector” and the challenges of working in a corporate environment

– Cultural differences between Japan and the US regarding work and money

– Transparency of data for evaluating the success of campaigns

– Launch and success of Facebook group Friday Night Karaoke and the accompanying podcast Friday Night Karaoke.

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Transcript (Provided by CastMagic.io)

Seth [00:00:04]:

Entrepreneurs Enigma is a podcast for the ups and downs of entrepreneurship. With the wins and the fails that we all face being entrepreneurs. How we learn from adversity. Every week I talk to a different entrepreneur with a story to tell. I’m Seth Goldstein. Come with me on the journey. This is Entrepreneurs Enigma. Let’s get started.

Seth [00:00:28]:

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another edition of the Entrepreneurs and Digima podcast. I came in too soon on that, but that’s fine. Anyhow, I’m Seth, your humble host. I’ve been that way since I was born. Maybe not a humble host, but I have been Seth since I’ve been born. So today I have Mike Wiston. It is midnight where he is. It’s not midnight where I am. So he’s clearly on the other side of the world. He’s calling in. Calling in. Jeez, I’m old. He’s coming to us from Japan and I really appreciate that he’s coming in. He is the CEO founder of Mowpod, which is a podcast promotion engine of sorts. And we’re going to get more into the nitty gritty with Mike. He is in Japan. He has two kids, a wife, and he’s currently oh, I just took myself off the screen. 20 year old whiskey. I think we’ll bring him back in here and ask him what especially he’s drinking. What are you drinking today? How’s it going?

Mike [00:01:30]:

I am drinking a 21 year old Royal Salute. Thank you. You gave me a reason to open this up.

Seth [00:01:37]:

Honored. I feel honored, my friend. This is awesome. This is great. So you are the founder of Mowpod and you are originally from the New York area, right?

Mike [00:01:47]:

Yes. Stanford, Connecticut. But for people outside of the Northeast, I just say I’m from New York because it’s easier.

Seth [00:01:55]:

I’m just north of Philadelphia. I stem from Philly.

Mike [00:01:57]:

Yeah, exactly.

Seth [00:01:58]:

I sound like I’m from Philly, so go figure.

Mike [00:02:00]:

Yeah, I walk like I’m from New York.

Seth [00:02:03]:

Oh, God. Well, actually probably keep up with the Japanese. Because they walk fast too.

Mike [00:02:07]:

No, not too. I guess they walk with purpose and they don’t look around. They look like straight ahead or there’s no making eye contact.

Seth [00:02:17]:

It’s kind of like New York. It’s kind of purpose.

Mike [00:02:20]:

Exactly.

Seth [00:02:20]:

Only New Yorkers will run you over if you stop in front of them, they’ll just go right through you.

Mike [00:02:26]:

My favorite thing is and the biggest contrast on that front is in Japan, they follow the red lights no matter what. So if there’s a red light at a crosswalk, there could be no cars for any direction within sight. And there could be like 1000 people standing between and they’ll all just sit there and wait. And it’s not illegal. You’re not going to get arrested. You’re not going to get in trouble. If you cross when it’s red, it’s just you’re not supposed to New York, but they’re rule follow. You do. And if you do it, they look at you like you’re doing some type of black magic. It’s not like, oh, you shouldn’t do that. It’s like, how are you doing that?

Seth [00:03:06]:

How did you get through how did.

Mike [00:03:08]:

You get through the invisible barrier while you’re dancing? Walking across.

Seth [00:03:13]:

Exactly.

Mike [00:03:14]:

That’s all the rules over here. It’s the right way to do it.

Seth [00:03:17]:

It’s right thing to do. Yeah, you should do that. Exactly. So you started this when you were over in Connecticut, right? In New York?

Mike [00:03:26]:

Yeah. Me and my co founder, Joe Rubin, we started this up, and it’s been a blast. About four years ago, we actually didn’t start in podcasting. We started the company’s, Mo Media, and I come from the job space. I spent a long time, many years in the job space, working with just about every major job board, companies like Zip Recruiter and Monster, Career Builder, Lensa, Next, et cetera. And the original idea was bringing non jobs revenue to the job space. So newsletters was our jam and became the largest driver of engaged subscribers to just about every major newsletter in the US.

Seth [00:04:01]:

Wow.

Mike [00:04:01]:

And about three years ago, we launched Mowpod, and it’s a product within Mo Media and has since become the vast majority of our business.

Seth [00:04:13]:

It’s amazing how that happens. The baby becomes the leader.

Mike [00:04:17]:

Yeah, well, it’s way more interesting. It’s like, way more exciting going from newsletters, which, don’t get me wrong, I love newsletters. I love that side of the business. It’s exciting in its own right. But podcasting, you get to touch on so many different things and so many different subjects and so many different personalities, and it just feels so much more engaging and real.

Seth [00:04:40]:

I love it. So we talked about this briefly on the preshow, which was not recorded, so you don’t have to join a patreon or anything. Get the preshow because it was not recorded inside. Joke on podcasting, how most people say, oh, you get the preshow. We’re just chewing the fat. If you subscribe to the patreon. No, there is no patreon. There’s no recorded preshow. So we’ll dress it here. Exactly. You initially met your wife on MySpace?

Mike [00:05:05]:

I did.

Seth [00:05:06]:

And she’s originally from Japan. So you have family in Japan. Makes sense. You’re in Japan. Other than Japan is an awesome place to be. You had a reason. You more than just, let’s go to Japan, kind of thing.

Mike [00:05:20]:

Yeah, I’ve been in the US my whole life, and my wife moved here. I was excited to try something new, so my wife moved to the US after we got married, and she lived there for 14 years, and we had our kids there, and our kids went to school, and our kids went to Japanese school as well, on the weekends. So they both speak English and Japanese. My wife at home only spoke to them in Japanese. Really? They both speak fluently.

Seth [00:05:54]:

How are you doing?

Mike [00:05:55]:

Ten years old in New York? I’m awesome in Japan. I’m like, I have some work to do.

Seth [00:06:04]:

I’m sure you can get around. And I’m sure they’re more as happy to talk in English to you because they want to practice their English. And you’re like, well, I want to practice my Japanese. There’s an argument. Let’s put up the cuffs.

Mike [00:06:16]:

Yeah, no, it works out. There’s a bar right next to my apartment that I like to go to. And they don’t speak a lick of English, but they with my Japanese. Yeah, it’s great culture. Yeah, they’re pretty cool. The experience has been amazing. And people are friendly and they’re how long have you been they’re very dedicated to what they’re doing, and they take a lot of pride in everything that they do. And you see someone with a job that in the US. You might look down on, but here they take so much pride in every job that they have. You don’t see people looking at their cell phone doing something in on it. Yeah, they’re there. They’re professional, sometimes with a smile on their face or just they’re content in what they’re doing. America is very everything is about money. At the end of the day, that’s the goalpost is how much money can I make and how can I make more? And if there’s an opportunity to make more somewhere else, why am I doing this? It can be deflating. Whereas over here, the general mentality from what I’ve experienced is, I need to make enough to live my life, and then I need to make a life outside of that.

Seth [00:07:40]:

Yeah, and then they’re bigger, like work life balance too. Well, some are selling.

Mike [00:07:44]:

They work a lot.

Seth [00:07:45]:

They work a lot of hours. Take it back. I remember studying Japanese culture in high school, and I was about to say, wait, Seth, where are you coming up with that?

Mike [00:07:54]:

Yeah, they work a lot of hours. My brother in law works 06:00 A.m. Until 11:00 p.m. Right now.

Seth [00:08:00]:

Oh, my gosh.

Mike [00:08:01]:

Insane. I’m like, Dude, that is take a breather. A little much.

Seth [00:08:06]:

Take a breather. But he’s supporting his family. All that mo pod and mo media. So how did you come up with this whole idea? Obviously, you start with newsletters, but how did you come up with the idea to be the engine?

Mike [00:08:21]:

Yeah, sure. So the podcasting side actually was born from newsletters. We’re the largest driver of engaged subscribers to Morning Brew and the Hustle back before their acquisitions by Insider and HubSpot. And they both had podcasts, and it kind of spurred the idea with Business Casual and My First Million. And they had mentioned that we’ll we have these podcasts. If you’re able to do what you’re doing in newsletters and bring them over to podcasting, it’s something we’d be interested in buying.

Seth [00:08:53]:

When you have someone that happens, an idea is handed to you.

Mike [00:08:57]:

Yeah. Someone’s willing to pay you for something that you haven’t built yet. And I’m like, we’re like, let’s figure this out. And we just want to take the exact same approach. Full transparency, performance first pay for performance. Don’t pay for clicks or don’t pay for impressions. You’re paying just for performance at the end of the day. And we went to figure it out, and that’s exactly what we’ve done.

Seth [00:09:21]:

And it works. I’ve used it and it works. And you asked in the preshow, which was not recorded, it was not on Patreon or anything like that. You said that 3% of the people who downloaded and get it through Mowpod actually stick around. And I can actually that’s with the.

Mike [00:09:39]:

Mowpod Boost side, right? So we have two products for Mowpod Boost. We have an Enterprise Mowpod boost. It’s a lot more robust. You get a dedicated account manager. We built the custom creatives and anywhere between three and ten different programmatic strategies on every campaign. But you’re looking at a minimum of $5,000 for those campaigns. And then we have the self serve, where it’s $100 minimum. And we’re still running three programmatic campaigns and everything’s automated. It works.

Seth [00:10:10]:

Yeah, it’s 100 hours. It’s not cheap, but it’s not expensive. I mean, that’s a very profound statement. I just made it. I should win an Academy Award for that statement. No, but the idea of it that they then stick around like entrepreneurs name has been hovering around like 800 downloads a month. And with a little push from Mowpod, we were above 1000 for the first time this month. So thank you, sir.

Mike [00:10:37]:

Someone just recently said I get by with a little boost from my friends.

Seth [00:10:44]:

That’s the whole idea is that podcasting is a discovery issue. It’s international newsletters, too. It’s a discovery issue. There’s so many out there and there’s so many out there that aren’t actively publishing out there, but they’re still in the ether. And you got to compete with the zombie ones. I guess I call them zombies. The zombie ones that are like three or four episodes, that are still out there, which are good, that’s good. Keep them out there. Because with the digital, whole digital thing, things disappear from the web. They’re not really existing anymore. It’s not tactile like where you have papers from 1945 or anything like that. But when you’re really trying to break through the craft, you need a little boost. And you can do it the old fashioned way of doing Google Ads, doing all that, or you can go over a Mowpod and it works. But it does. And it’s nice because entrepreneurs not my full time job, but it’s a way for me to meet people like Mike. It’s a way for me to interact with other people who I want to hopefully work with at some point, that kind of thing. But I don’t have time to do all the ads and all that and all this. So if I can go say, here’s $100, Mike, get me 100, I think it’s 107. The algorithm calculates it for me downloads. Good. It’s out of my head.

Mike [00:12:05]:

111 downloads. We buy in a CPM, it’s impossible for us to deliver exactly 111. So we always over deliver.

Seth [00:12:16]:

You over deliver. And that’s another thing. I was like, whoa, I think I did 100. I got like 133 downloads. And then it’s like, okay, thank you. Thank you for the bonus. I appreciate that. Because it’s not going to stop because people are going to see the ad, they’re going to download it, but they might see the ad and then download it, like next week or something like that, or not next week, the next day. And it all works that way.

Mike [00:12:40]:

Yeah. The key to everything in our success with this is not just in the downloads, and more importantly, the IAB downloads, which were actually reflected in a host, a 62nd download, unique IP address within 24 hours. But far more importantly, in my opinion, is just the transparency in how these campaigns are being run and the data. So you get to see everything from when it was delivered, how it was delivered, how many ad impressions were delivered, how many people clicked the play button on the actual player, how many of those plays actually resulted in an IB download engagement rates, which is an estimated full episode download. And we break that all down by campaign strategy. And then we show you every single audience, every device, every geo, down to the city level on exactly where these impressions were served and what worked and what didn’t work.

Seth [00:13:30]:

It’s incredible. And for a stats geek, it’s even better. Like, if you like stats and knowing where things are coming from, it’s, why not use Mowpod? Why not? Even if you do enterprise level, if you think you said $5,000 minimum, that’s.

Mike [00:13:46]:

Not the reality though, is there’s probably 300 to 500 companies in podcast? There’s 250,000, give or take, active podcasts at any given time. But realistically, with marketing teams and real marketing budgets behind them, there’s what, the three to 500 maybe. So that’s really why we built the self served just to address the rest of the market much bigger.

Seth [00:14:14]:

Yeah.

Mike [00:14:16]:

The key to growth in general, I’ve said this on other interviews, but I think the most important thing for anyone to keep in mind is when you have paid media for growth in anything that you’re doing, you should have an organic engine first. Figure out that organic engine first, figure out how to validate that there’s something worth spending money on. And the great example of this is let’s use a newsletter as an example because it’s easy. And it’s easy to track everything that’s happening. If you have a newsletter and organically through your own efforts with social and with friends and family and your LinkedIn network or anywhere else that you’re pushing out for this organic engine to get people to subscribe, if you’re getting 5% open rates with your organic audience, the people that should be opening all the time. Paying for media isn’t going to get you higher open rates. It’s not going to get you better engagements. You need to fix what you have first. You need to get to a point where you’ve tested it with the group that should be opening, should be listening, should be coming back and leaving you reviews, et cetera. If you’re not getting that organically, don’t pay for media, because you’re just going to be paying for more people that aren’t going to do it.

Seth [00:15:32]:

Absolutely. So here’s a question for you. Here’s one of the three questions I ask every single guest on the show.

Mike [00:15:40]:

Blue.

Seth [00:15:41]:

Blue. Exactly. There you go. Favorite color is blue. There you go. What is the best thing about being an entrepreneur? Because have you done the corporate grind before this?

Mike [00:15:50]:

Yeah, I’ve done it. So I can’t do that. Well, for me, personally, I can’t work for somebody. I have too many ideas. I’m the guy, and God bless anyone who’s ever had to work with me and the people who currently work with me. But I’m the guy who come up with I like to identify lots of opportunities, and I’m the Dot connector. I like to take this dot, and I talked to this guy over here, and I talked to this girl over here, and I’m going to connect these dots, and I see a huge opportunity to either make money or to build something really cool or whatever. So I like to come up with the ideas, connect the dots, prove out the idea, like actually build something and improve it out. And then I want to hand it off, and I want it to give it somebody else. And that doesn’t really work in most corporate environments. In most corporate environments, you end up with those repetitive tasks and those things make me want to blow my head off. I can’t oh, there you go. No, in a hypothetically.

Seth [00:16:53]:

Here exactly. So what keeps you up at night besides podcast on the East Coast where it’s eleven 06:00 a.m. And it’s like midnight there? Other than that, what keeps you up at night? What’s the worry when you’re an entrepreneur?

Mike [00:17:08]:

Well, I mean, what keeps me up at night, literally, is being in Japan, because all my clients are in the US. I’m up at midnight here for this, and I have a 03:00 a.m. Call, and I have a 05:00 a.m. Call after that, and then you go to bed. That’s literally what keep in a literal sense, what keeps me up at night. But the thing that worries me the most about being entrepreneur is it’s always you don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow. Right. And as the entrepreneur, in contrast to being an employee, where as an employee, you do your job, you’re going to get a paycheck, and if you fail at your job, you lose your job and you go get another job as an entrepreneur, especially one who doesn’t have. We’re bootstrapped. We’ve been bootstrapped since day one. Will never take outside money, or most likely won’t ever take outside money.

Seth [00:17:59]:

Qualified.

Mike [00:17:59]:

Yeah. Never know. Yeah. It’s not something we’re exploring or my point being is unless you have investors or something along those lines, if you’re playing with your own money and you’ve really pushed all that in, at the end of the day, you don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow. And there’s no just, I’m going to go get another job. Depending on how far you’ve leveraged yourself, it can be scary. I’ve been through all sides of it. I’ve been through the early stages where it was really terrifying. That really keeps you up at night, where you really don’t know. The best, worst scenario is when you have that one major client. When we first started Mo Media, within two months, my partner got Morning Brew to be our first major client. They were spending a massive amount, massive amount of money with us. And we’re like, we have this business. Yeah. And we were rocking. We realized it was all one client, and that is this worst situation to be in. It’s great because you’re making money, but at the end of the day, diversify it. You can’t have all your eggs in that one basket.

Seth [00:19:13]:

So tempting to be there and to say we’re good. Exactly. You’re not good. You’re not good. You’re not good. Like, come on, wake up. You got to get into the next one, the next one after that. And scale, I think we have a.

Mike [00:19:25]:

Little over 120 clients right now, so it makes me feel a lot better on that front.

Seth [00:19:30]:

Which is a good thing. Exactly. All right, so here what is the most important thing to carry with you all the time besides a 21 year old whiskey?

Mike [00:19:39]:

Most carry, like, physically or emotionally or mentally?

Seth [00:19:42]:

You can do both. You can do all kinds, whatever you want to do.

Mike [00:19:45]:

Well, I mean, physically, I always have a necklace. Physically, they’re not necessarily something that is expensive or I wear it till it breaks and then I get another one. And I don’t just go buy it, I have to discover it. Usually someone will give it to me or I’ll be with someone and I’ll see it while I’m with them, and it means something. This is the most recent, and I think I’ve been wearing it for two years now. And the one before that, I wore probably ten years. So necklace for me is like the thing that’s like a physical object. Yeah. I think emotionally or just in general, one of the things, the most important thing to carry with you is just be real. Be true to yourself, being yourself. Don’t get lost in trying to be the person you envy or trying to be someone that you’re not, because it’ll catch up to you’re going to be miserable. You’ll never be that person. Just accept who you are. Be the best version of yourself and keep that in mind in everything that you do. You’re that entrepreneur that you see Elon Musk or Richard Branson and you’re like, I want to be like that. Or you see your Gary Vee fan or something like that, and you’re like, I want to be like that. Cool. Whatever. Take the best parts of it and strive to incorporate them into your life. But don’t abandon who you are.

Seth [00:21:22]:

Exactly. That’s kind of key. So, Mike, where is your waterhole online? Where’s your favorite spot to hang out online? Is it LinkedIn? Is it, God forbid, Twitter?

Mike [00:21:36]:

So it’s Facebook because I started the Friday night Karaoke Facebook group during the pandemic. Yeah. So during the pandemic, my partner Joe and I, we started this because we couldn’t go out. I love karaoke. So is he. We couldn’t go anywhere. They just couldn’t go anywhere. And we were sad. We’re like, sitting at home or we’re just doing Mo Pod and Mo Media, and we’re like, we can’t do anything. So we started this little Facebook group called Fighting at Karaoke. And basically it was just us posting videos, singing karaoke songs, and then finding other people who are posting karaoke songs and featuring them. And then it just took off. We’re at 14,000 members right now, or almost 15,000. It’s mega active. They’re posting hundreds of songs every single day. It’s negativity free. It’s ad free. It’s gimmick free. We don’t monetize it in any way, shape, or form. It’s just about the love of music. And then more importantly, like two years ago or a year and a half ago or so, we launched the Friday Night Karaoke podcast, and we feature ten of the songs that they post every single week under a theme, and we put it in a podcast for them. We basically drink a bottle of bourbon and talk about how awesome these songs are. And again, no negativity, just all upbuilding and for the love of music. And I’m proud to say we’re the number five music pod as of today. We’re the number five music podcast in the US. And number five music podcast in Canada.

Seth [00:23:03]:

Oh, wow.

Mike [00:23:04]:

We did hit number one, but yeah, we didn’t hold it.

Seth [00:23:08]:

It’s hard to hold the number one spy. It really is, but so number five.

Mike [00:23:11]:

Is number five, dude.

Seth [00:23:13]:

Number five is a good number five is a good number.

Mike [00:23:17]:

You’ll never hear a single ad.

Seth [00:23:19]:

Oh, that’s fantastic. We’re crazy. One of the two. But it’s a good thing.

Mike [00:23:24]:

It’s a passion project.

Seth [00:23:25]:

It’s fine. You have to have a side hustle that’s fun, that you just enjoy kind of you hustle with it, but it’s not for business. Just fun. It’s an escape.

Mike [00:23:35]:

Well, the other big thing with the podcast is we realized it would be fun to start the podcast because we wanted to go through the process. We have Mowpod, obviously, and we want to go through the process. From the very beginning, we wanted to feel the pain of what it takes to start and grow a podcast from nothing.

Seth [00:23:54]:

Absolutely.

Mike [00:23:55]:

We didn’t even use Mowpod for the first long while. We didn’t use Mowpod at all. We just wanted to go through the motion of, what does everyone do? If I’m a podcaster, what do I do? And love it. We put our best foot forward on it, and it worked.

Seth [00:24:10]:

Paid off. Absolutely.

Mike [00:24:14]:

Made a big difference.

Seth [00:24:15]:

Facebook is where your community is. That’s where we can find, like, awesome Mowpod. And in Japan, you’re between Tokyo and Osaka, right?

Mike [00:24:26]:

I am 40 minutes outside of Tokyo, 20 minutes outside Yokohama. Yohama. Osaka is really far.

Seth [00:24:34]:

It’s small country, but it takes a while to get from point A to point B.

Mike [00:24:38]:

Well, they do have the shinkansen, which is nice. The bullet train, it gets you there really fast.

Seth [00:24:42]:

But driving is where it takes it takes a little while.

Mike [00:24:45]:

I love driving. That’s when I get to actually you’re.

Seth [00:24:48]:

In New York driving. Wow.

Mike [00:24:50]:

Yeah, it’s like freeing. It’s actually my favorite place to take a meeting because I don’t have to be on a freaking video zoom call. I could just actually get actual stuff done. It’s great.

Seth [00:25:02]:

I love it. So, Mike, thank you so much for staying up late. I know you’re on Eastern Time Zone, in the US time Zone, but still, it’s midnight in Japan, and I’m sure the kids are sleeping, the wife’s sleeping, and you’re working.

Mike [00:25:15]:

They’re at the in laws. I’m freaking stoked.

Seth [00:25:18]:

Also, quiet. You get the whole house yourself.

Mike [00:25:20]:

And I have meetings throughout the night, so I have to somehow make it through the night.

Seth [00:25:27]:

You had something to drink, too.

Mike [00:25:30]:

I’m a professional. I’m good at this.

Seth [00:25:32]:

Now. You’re going to be like, I’m not sleepy now.

Mike [00:25:34]:

No. This is how you solve that. It is.

Seth [00:25:39]:

So on that note, we will see everyone next time. That was a great show. If you’re enjoying Entrepreneurs Enigma, please view us in the podcast directory of your choice. Every review helps other podcast listeners find our show. If you’re looking for other podcasts in the marketing space, look no further than the Marketing Podcast Network@marketingpodcast.net. Hopes you have enjoyed this episode. This podcast is one of the many great shows on the MPN Marketing Podcast Network.